Earth's Earliest Ages

And Their Connection with Modern Spiritualism and Theosophy
Author(s): 
G. H. Pember
Edition / Year: 
12th Edition, 1893(?)

(Please note that this article contains mockery of sincerely held Christian beliefs, albeit of the flakier variety. If that sort of thing offends you, kindly shove off).

It is interesting to observe how some misguided souls manage to build vast towers of supposition on the shakiest foundations by the power of faith alone. In his book Mr. Pember presented a vision of the world which may sound like fantastic fiction to the sceptic, but which he believed was a literal interpretation of the words of the Bible: the type of interpretation in which any assertion, however mad, however unsupported by evidence, can be 'true' if some Biblical passage can be read as confirming it.

His aim in writing the book was to communicate his views on the connections between the ancient history of the world and the then popular fads of Theosophy and Spiritualism, which he saw as demonically-inspired and liable to bring about the end of mankind. There seemed to him clear parallels between contemporary events and biblical stories such as the Fall of Adam and Eve and the great Flood.

Pember's application of the term 'literal' did not exclude the wildest interpolations between the lines where he felt like it. For example, take the first two verses of Genesis:-

  1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

According to Pember (following the Scottish theologian Thomas Chalmers), there is no indication of the length of time that had passed between the two verses, and so there is no contradiction between the Bible and geological observation: the vast ages of time indicated by study of rocks occurred in the gap. What is more, Pember was inclined to believe that during this time there were in existence numberless 'preadamite' races of man who were each in turn wiped out by God when they proved unable to resist the lure of sin.

In this time, too, Satan got up his rebellion against God and was duly chucked out of heaven (though how he hoped to succeed in overcoming his omnipotent adversary is never explained), to find a new home with his accomplices in the air around us:-

For the whole aerial surroundings of our planet are densely peopled with a hostile race of beings unutterably superior in wisdom and power to ourselves; having had during a vast number of years every conceivable experience of the weak points of humanity ; possessing the incalculable advantage of being themselves invisible, though as spiritual intelligences they are probably able, not merely to judge of us by our words and outward expression of countenance but even to read the innermost thoughts of our heart; co-operating with the most perfect and never-failing organization; and lastly, directed by a leader of consummate wisdom and skill, who is assisted by powerful princes, and finds his subjects so numerous, that, if we are to lay any stress on the word “legion” in the memorable narrative of Luke, he is able to spare some six thousand of them to guard one miserable captive.

(Scary, eh? Satan - the ultimate super-villain).

Pember's version of the Adam and Eve story is a little odd, too. I am not entirely sure what to make of the following passage:-

Yet another and crowning joy was in store for Adam. His benign Creator, knowing that it was not good for him to be alone, determined to bestow upon him a companion and partner of his joy. But first he brought to him the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, to see what he would call them: that is, to see if he should claim any of them as bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. Adam gave names to all, but to none that of woman; a result which had, of course, been anticipated by God. Indeed it seems not improbable that He made the trial to stimulate in His creature a desire which He intended to gratify.

Is there not a hint of bestiality here?

Adam and Eve were tempted by a snakeskin-clad Satan, and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Grumpy old God, who could anticipate that Adam would not fancy snuggling up to even the cutest of camels, but somehow failed to spot Old Nick setting up his greengrocer's cart, slung them out of the garden, and in a fit of temper cursed the Earth. Pember cites a nutty Professor Balfour, who believed that the existence of thorns and thistles were 'evidence' of His curse on the vegetable kingdom.

Having dealt with the early chapters of the Bible, Pember turned to the various modern manifestations of sin that would bring down the wrath of God as in the days of Adam. In so doing, he showed that his literalism in the reading of texts was not limited to the Bible but extended as much to the extravagant claims of his foes in the Theosophical movement, such as that mediums, by the aid of demons, are able “to hold intercourse with supernatural beings, to reveal secrets, and in some degree to foretell; can travel in a moment to any part of the world ...”. Furthermore, demonic possession is a commonplace, “a large proportion of the patients in our lunatic asylums” being such cases, and “direct communication with demons ... is now becoming prevalent”. And, proving the advanced nature of North American society even 100 years ago, “the ceremonious marriage of a woman to a demon is a thing not unknown in the United States: whether it has ever happened in England we cannot say”.

Another great evil in the world was Buddhism, which according to Pember had many more adherents than previously suspected: for, “recent investigations have made it probable that Buddha was once the god of Northern Europe, and that his name is philologically identical with that of Woden...”. Not only that, but some fifth century Chinese Buddhists “apparently” reached North America and made converts there. Most astonishingly (except to the most paranoid of protestant fundamentalists), “there can be little doubt that the Buddhist tope is the original of the Roman Church...”.

Like many before and after, Pember believed that the End Was Nigh, though sensibly he refrained from suggesting exactly how Nigh It Was, preferring darkly hinting rhetorical questions: “if the great apostasy, which will at last evolve the Lawless One, be even now spreading; who can be sure of a day or an hour? ... Are we not living through solemn times: is the air not full of warnings: does it not behove every believer to arise, gird up his loins, and trim his lamp?”. How disappointing it must have been to those of Pember's readers who responded to his call and spent the remainder of their days in loin-girding and lamp-trimming, rather than on something they might have enjoyed more, to go to their death beds without having witnessed the second coming nor having the satisfaction of seeing their sinful neighbours judged and sent down into the black and fiery mouth of Hell.

Amusing as this may be, wouldn't it be much more so if no-one nowadays believed this kind of tripe? Sadly the number of misguided loons does not appear to have diminished much over the century since it was published: indeed you can still buy this book, you poor saps.

Comments

that was quite an article to read...(whoever you are) you must have a "cast iron" heart and destined to live forever,...and seeing that you are supernaturally vindicated to have the correct understanding ,...that Pember was a "Crank' or a religeous "Crack pod",..and his revelation of the ages of time between Genisis 1 and genesis 2 are wrong. you tell me then....are we the only civilization that has been on this "Ancient" planet?....as far as most Bible believers know, there are only 2 civilizations that have been brought to mans attention,...the present civilization.. and the one destroyed in the antedeuvian destruction,..this is not true,,, and the reason I say it's not true is because it is clearly written in the Bible that there have been many ages of Human civilizations on this planet,...all you need to do is turn to the book of Ecclesiastes chapter 1....read from verse 8 to verse 11....the Amplified Bible brings it out very well........So Pember was 100% correct
Wow. It's in the magic book so it must be true.
With Pember's skillful methods of reading between biblical lines now revealed I can finally substantiate my long held believe that god physically consummates his love with us while we sleep at night and that mosus was a dinosaur. Thank you for revealing a true genius to the world once more.
Well,..I have to say that you are right,..it is written in the Bible or the "Magic Book" as you call it....there must be a reason don't you think?,.. Moses,.. or whoever wrote the Old testament could not have sucked it out of his thumb..or did he write it via inspiration from the Creator himself. It is written that there is no new thing that man can achieve ( includung Nuclear Knowledge)... you can be sure that it has all happened before...in the Vast Ages Of Time that were before us....where are we going to fit that in? In the beginning..God created the Heavens and the Earth...."Period...the fact that there was a vast space of time there,.. could not be figured out by man himself.... it "had" to be given or revealed to man by God. who is the man that can say it never happened? are we not an advanced civilization now,..living on a round planet in the middle of nowhere...or am i wrong?......If I am right ...then as intelegent people we need to ask ourselves the questions, why am I here? and how did I get here? how did I get my present identity? and how did we get the knowledge to split the Atom and completely destroy the human race....we have it now and they had it back then in the Antedeluvian world that was destroyed,....how many times has it happened? The human race is suffering from amnesia,...for some reason people cannot believe that God has created more than once here on this planet,... we have the fossil remains of Dinosaurs ..where God brooded over the Earth ..way back then and brought a specific "life cycle' of animals into existence,...how many times did it happen?..and how many billions of years ago was it?. Are we the first to land on the moon?...and were there people on Mars before... it's in the mind of man now...don't you think it was in the mind of man before?...(think about it) you don't have to be a literary giant or a mathematical genius now that it has been brought to our attention.....Creation "demands" a Creator,...who else could reveal to GH Pember (and a few others) that there were Ages of time between genesis 1 and genesis 2 but God .....God brought it to mans attention. The problem with the human race is that his mind is "locked" in the present system of the world and therefore completely blinded from his Creator...and the only way he can justify his intelectual Godlessnes is to believe that he evolved from some animal that once swung from tree to tree somewhere...untill he eventially destroyes himself with his own technology,......Michael A Wilson.
Tell me , where is it written that Eve was tempted by a Snake skin clad Satan? and where is it written that Adam and Eve were eating a bunch of apples that made them realise they were naked?. Does it not say in Genesis 3 verse 2 that Adam and Eve may eat of "every" friut tree of the "GARDEN" natural friut , including the preverbial Apple. it was the "Curse" that God put on the Serpent that changed his original form through some evolutionary/ adaptational process perhaps This was a person that the Bible referes to as "he" a personal pronoun. and "he" being above all animals in the creation, had an intelegent conversation with Eve, obviously with a very good understanding of the principiles of life. his "inspiration' was Satan, but he himself was not Satan, or any snake coiled around a tree, but the most Subtil of all the beast of the field,..between the animal and the human, just like the Bible says. It's more than obvious that the friut tree that was in the "midst" of the garden, that was not to be touched was Eve herself, the rest is as clear as daylight Man fell, by joining himself to the animal kingdom by choice. that is why God required a BLOOD sacrifice as an atonement. Howcome, the Serpent ( being inspired by Satan) knew the outcome and what it would cause, Had Satan,(Gods enemy) caused a similar thing before here on this planet,...
" he " The Serpent was obviously "one' of a speci, which was the highest form between the animal and the human,...when God cursed him, that whole speci was "taken out" this is the speci who's seed could mix (and did mix)with the human and Satan knew it. It's an undeniable fact that we have animal remnants in us and it's an undeniable fact that we are part animal. it's hybridisation that caused the (free radical) death process in us. whereas before, there was no death. (Ye shall not eat of it neither shall ye touch it) "LESS YE DIE" Gen3:3 (plenty of graveyards just down the road) Unfortuneately it is more than futile for the present anthropologists, scientist and geologists who spend years and years and millions of dollars trying to find this animal,..they know there was a 'Link" but regardless of the fact that they are very educated and very smart, they still have the tendency to walk "rough shod" over a field of "Orchids" with hobnail boots, to inspect or analyze a blade of grass. That animal is still here, he sure is, but after the "Curse" got hold of him , he is no longer in that form. (or in any mood either) and he can never be recognised by Science, geologist, anthropologists and all the other "ologists" that go with it. ...I wonder what Satan thinks about him now?. I wil put Emnity between "Thy" Seed and "Her" Seed Gen3;15 so the Serpent had a seed and and Eve had a seed (or aquired one?) Eve, being the mother of all living, as mentioned in Gen3;20 dissapeared into history, but Adam was NOT the father of all living,. There never was any such thing as a Talking Snake in the garden of Eden and there never was any such thing as an Apple Tree walking around in the "midst"of the Garden either. I think there are a lot of people out there who need to pull the wool "off" their eyes The Seed of the Serpent might be conroversial, but it's the truth nevertheless.
I'm kind of a lapsed Christian, also American. Whenever I read anything about the Bible, be it the Bible or maybe Paradise Lost, etc. For some reason I always picture the devil as a Scottish Drunk. You kick him out of the bar, he has no right to be there legally, but somehow he's going to come round later and kick in your window. You can get the cops on him, the law's on your side, but somehow he gets the upper hand and you constantly have to deal with him. Not sure what the theological ramifications are, but it's what goes through my head.
Well , the way you describe satan is actually true,...he is an acuser of the people of God....he is always around,...he is a spirit in opposition to God...if he can find a fault in the Bible ....and if there is a fault in the Bible, then he would have a right to Eternal Life, and God would be obligated to give it to him. There is no fault in the Bible. if you are a believer, then you are a duallity as a person, and you have to deal with the "old nature" that is what Satan works on and he is a very good adversary,....Salvation doesn't depend on your human ability, if it did, then there would be no reason for God to take on the form of Man two thousand years ago. "He" paid the price as a Man. your name was put on the "Book of Life" way back before the foundation of this Earth. the "Seed Gene" of God is either in you by birth,,...or you can never get it. if you are part of God then Satan is going to attack you. don't condemn yourself,..just keep going. Regards
God 'bless even you'! Having read only one of his book "Great Prophecies" I have realized that G H Pember was a great man of prophetic caliber whom God had raised in England to reveal the truths that were hidden in the layers of bible and history. Many of his interpretations of 130 years back, have exactly happened in the last century concerning Israel, the church and the gentiles and I strongly believe the remaining ones would very soon 'come to pass'! When the foretold terrible events 'befall' in the coming years; you may remember the words of warnings this great man (like that of Noah) had uttered and pray to the Almighty God for deliverence! Please read his other books as well.
Thanks for that information, he was a great man of God, and I will try to get his other book
The thought of a Preadamic civilization came to me several days ago. I then searched the scripture and the inspired sermons by God's servant. After comparing the Scriptures, the sermons and consider their harmony, I am convince that there was "life" before Adam. Make no mistake that I did not say Mankind "life". Mankind started with Adam the son of God and no one else. From last week, I was set free from my "set mind" that the Sun and the moon are only 10,000 years at most. Now I understand the Bible and know that it harmonises with common sense and scientific findings. God bless you.
GH Pember was a great man with an amazing insight, but he could only bring to our attention what God purposed him for. He tried to tackle the mystery of the Fall of Man in the garden of Eden...but that revelation was only given 100 years or so later, as I mentioned previously Satan was not a "Snake" coiled arount a tree. Satan is a Spirit who is in opposition to God and the serpent was not a snake but a upright person,...the Curse that God put on him changed his orriginal form. over a long period of time perhaps You are right about Adam being the first human here, but that would be in the present "life cycle" of creation on this Planet. We as humans look back to our orrigins and the mind boggling complexity of life, and we do not realise that God has had many "life Cycles" of creation here. there were billions of years between Gen1:1 and Gen1:2 there will be civilizations again on Earth in the future too,after we have all gone here This fact is also mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastes Chapter1 verse 3 to verse 11 God Bless you
In 1847, the Dragon raised his skeletal dead-head from the grave in our sight, and proclaimed throughout the world that none of our histories were correct, and that all human religion was made of the same superstitious substance; all of it being denounced and discredited by the pictures of dinosaurs in a British newspaper in 1847. Within a few years, Charles Darwin jumped on the popular and constantly applauded promiscuous bandwagon to be the star of the show by explaining it all so that humanity was nothing more than a nearly hairless, very clever monkey: descended from an amoeba like creature that just 'appeared' in a slime ocean: an amoeba like thing that became a fish like thing; that became a lizard like thing: that became a gopher like thing, that became you. INDEED, most of mankind (even in the so-self-claimed 'civilized' masses) does live by the social code of the ape tribe to this very day; so that behavioral as well as physiological evidence can be cited to support Darwin's thesis (see Nietzsche's "Genealogy Of Morals"). But no other animal anywhere in the world has ever circumcised itself. Circumcision ALONE proves that there is a fundamental and essential difference between humanity and the animal kingdom. I do not know if The Gap Theory as we now have it completely explains the Nazca Lines or Easter Island as well as the dinosaurs, but it is the only explanation that I presently know of that leaves humanity with any dignity or hope. I will NOT willingly participate (COMPETE) in the society of the apes, and I will affirm monogamy as a sign of human connection to Divinity. Nietzsche's "Superman" was only the 800 pound gorilla, who could bully it's way to the biggest harem, the best seat in the clearing and the first choice of available food. Fallen (sinful) humanity is bestial, but this does not come of bestiality, but of sin. Jesus Christ IS God, and you're not.

Why pick on circumcision? No other animal gives itself haircuts or wears shoes. None of this proves anything. The Bible is full of inconsistencies and contradictions: have you got more mad theories to explain all of them? I hope so, as there's nothing so pleasing as laughter.

Well, ( to Just another Christian) It's very interesting what you say, and it is no doubt an enormous and very contraversial subject. there is a very big difference between us humans and an animal, as I mentioned previously about the fall of man in the beggining via "The Serpent" one has to consider where this Serpent came from in the first place. There was a great evolution, but God's great evolution could not have been a random developement of life that was free to go in any uncontrolled direction,....Evolution went along the predestination and foreknowledge of God, where every seed will bring forth of it's "kind" who's life is within itself, ( and God saw that it was Good) animals evolved via an adaptational process dictated by the climatic changes and circumstances on Earth. This being perhaps braught about by the continental plates drifting together and drifting apart and changing the climate. There is no possibility of one specie changing into another specie via a process of time. Now here is the great mystery, in terms of the theory of us humans evolving from some animal that once swung from tree to tree somewhere. God does not indwell an animal, humans were created in the image of God, the spiritual part of us. but somewhere along the line that orriginal creation was interfered with, and there is animal in us now, as well as the fact that we are now subject to death. .....so what happened? the animalistic brutality, and the sexual depravity that is in man, did not come from God. and could only have come via that link that Man has been searching for. The Serpent. hence this great scientific and technological age that we now live in, which was joint heirs with consequent hybridization of the human race. There are two natures in the human race now, and it was not so in the beginning. It's also very clear in the book of genesis, that there was pre Adamic civilizations on Earth , and Gods enemy was involved there too. The Nasca lines are also a very clear indication of very advanced civilizations that were here ....perhaps a million years ago, or who knows. Eric Von Daniken saw it very clearly in his book "chariets of the Gods", though I dissagree with him that people from another planet came here. it lookes very much like the remaines or the foundations of ancient landing strips superimposed one on top of the other, ..some have been pushed up by mantle and crust activity in the earth. there is very little techtonic activity there and very dry, which is probably why they can still be seen. I don't know why "Alfred Armstrong" say's that the Bible contradicts itself, I have been around for the best part of fifty years and I still can't find a contradiction in it. There cannot be the slightest fault or contradiction in the Word of God, if there is, Satan would have found it a long time back already, and he would have a right to Eternal Life, and God would be obligated to give it to him, as well as the fact that God would have to aknowledge defeat by His enemy Satan, and we know that is not going to happen. So Alfred Armstrong, you are wrong. and I am right.

Best source I've found for blblical contradictions: http://www.ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra

"There cannot be the slightest fault or contradiction in the Word of God, if there is, Satan would have found it a long time back already, and
he would have a right to Eternal Life, and God would be obligated to give it to him,
as well as the fact that God would have to aknowledge defeat by His enemy Satan,
and we know that is not going to happen. So Alfred Armstrong, you are wrong.
and I am right."

On the other hand there may be no such being as Satan (and biblical authority for his existence is pretty rocky: http://eu.dummies.com/WileyCDA/how-to/content/sizing-up-satan-in-the-bible.html).

Saying your opponent is wrong because they disagree with you isn't an argument, by the way. If you are going to argue with someone, you have to start from common ground. If I don't believe in the truth of the Bible, then you need to find evidence of its veracity to convince me, not simply tell me I'm wrong. Anyone can play that game and it doesn't get us anywhere.

No real argument intended, we can all be wrong in things in life, and I doubt that you are my opponent. You probably don't have to go to a mental institution to see Satan, all you need to do is go to your nearest Night Club, and believe me, you will see him in action for yourself,....just stand there and watch the guys look upon the woman and eachother in lust just the same as the Serpent looked upon Eve. After all he has to look after his own Eden that he has aquired for himself via his "diabolical' biological understanding of the principals of life. it has taken him six thousand years to aquire this in opposition to God. physical beauty breeding with physical beautiful, in Satan's own sexual Eden. no wonder God is going to destroy it again. Don't tell me he does not exist, because I know better than that,........Please don't send him my regards when you are there ,..because he don't like "me"
"In this time, too, Satan got up his rebellion against God and was duly chucked out of heaven (though how he hoped to succeed in overcoming his omnipotent adversary is never explained), to find a new home with his accomplices in the air around us:-" Alfred makes an interesting observation: One thing that Christians never seem to discuss and that I find truly fascinating is the question of why Satan, a creature far older wiser than any human would war against God, a fight which anyone capable of the slightest reason would say he is bound to loose. Nobody starts a war they are certain to loose. If they ever put out a study asking people "Would you rebel against an omniscient, omnipotent being?" I have to imagine the results would overwhelmingly be in the "no". "Paradise Lost" attempts to deal with this but, I think, does a poor job. Also the problem is dealt with in the excellent book "Good Omans" by T. Pratchett and N. Gaiman in which the side of heaven is portrayed as not at all certain to win to apocalypse. If I were inclined to believe in the bible I would take this extraordinary discrepancy quite seriously, probably become suspicious as to why it is not mentioned and windup a gnostic student of the lost gospel of Basilides. I would love to know of any books that attempt to deal with this subject.
You are absolutely right sir, The reason why most Bible believers never seem to discuss how Satan could ever hope to succeed in overcomming his omnipotent adversary, Namely ( Jehovah Elohim)... or the Sovereign singular identity, self existing intrinsic Being, that encompasses all fathomless eterntity. ....is because Satan has never been ignorant enough to believe it in the first place. Satan, who was a creation of God, and was equal to God, except he could not create,.. but instead ultimately, ended up being cast down to earth. where he began to pervert what God had already created. Ofcourse we all understand, that the realm or diamention that this all took place, is far beyond any humans understanding. It is important to understand, that in this Great self existing Being, were many different attributes, or perhaps better described as charracteristics. like A Saviour, A Healer, A Comforter, a Creator, etc. all these different attributes of God required a manifestation. In other-words He could not be a Saviour, if there was nothing to be saved. He could not be a Healer, if there was no sickness, He could not be a Comforter, if no comforting was required, He could not be a Creator if there was no creation. All that exists in the present reality as we as humans know it,...was for the purpose of God to express the Charracteristics of Himself,..or the charracteristics that were in Him. These Characteristic requiring a form or a format, or a set of surcumstanses, whereby the same singular identity, All Mighty God, would actively appear in the ordering of events, under His own Divine Authority, to Redeem His Elect from Adams Fallen Race, thereby taking Himself a Bride, that was formally trapped by representation ,with no way out, and no hope, but for that particular attribute. The Saving Grace, of All Mighty God. God had to create the devil (satan), otherwise no opposition was available, this opposition being in terms of satan's influence on the"free will" God had Given His orriginal creation in Eden. God created the "Serpent" the very instrument that satan used.....so it can therefore be said that God allowed man to fall, by his own free will, and that is why God was duty bound to redeem him, according to the "Grace Attribute" that was in Him as the Sovereign God. He, Himself, ultimately took on the form of flesh, and died as a Human ...a kinsman, and thereby expressing that saviour attribute that was in Him. Satan knows that he can never defeat God. in fact he trembles at the very thought of God, and the thought of his ultimate end. The only thing he does, is pervert what god has created. this also being in terms of him doing his best through religeous deception, and the five senses of the body to drag as many souls as he can with him. That is why it is written,.... all who's name is not written in the lambs Book of Life. before the foundation of the earth, will be deceived by Him and his diabolical religeous organization. Satan can never defeat God ,..and he knows it.
Also what does ,.... mean? I know the Brits use commas differently than we of the colonies so perhaps you are from Ireland and have different conventions than us.
So your saying that God created Evil and Satan so he could have something to save, comfort, create, and heal? I doubt many theologians would agree that god created evil because such a theory clashes with the idea that god is all good or omnibenevolent. In any case you seem to have missed my point. I'll try to summarize it in a few easy steps: (1) If Satan knows that god will defeat him he will not oppose god. (2) Satan knows as much as you do and quite alot more. Furthermore he is almost certainly more intelligent than you or any other human. (3) Therefore his opposition to god must be because he actually has quite a good chance of defeating god. (4) Therefore all that business of "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not" is simply propaganda and not actually certain to happen or predestined at all. (5) Therefore its just as reasonable to support hell as to support heaven. Possibly more reasonable because hell doesn't constantly brag that its going to win ad nausium. Indeed, if I had to pick between two teams, one telling me constantly its certain to win and the other not saying anything I would probably pick the smugly silent. Really its just like expecting Satan to pick both boxes in Newcomb's paradox, except if he picks both boxes he doesn't just loose money, the Predictor stabs him repeatedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb's_paradox
Sir I understand what you are saying, and it is a very interesting subject, but it must have a logical answer from a humanistic point. As you say, satan is far more intellegent than any human, and he knows he cannot defeat God. but remember, he has "replaced" God through deception,..but he can never be litterally Jehovah. I hope you see what I am saying. It has to be considered in terms of Satan being a reality. he does exist, and he was created by God,..in other-words he had a beggining and will have an end. but God never did have a beggining. Our human make-up, which includes the various senses of our bodies, is the thing that connects us to the reality of life, on a round ball, in the middle of nowhere,...it's a boggling thaught, but it's a fact. Any person in his right mind has to aknowledge that we are here, and our existense here is not just a dream. But the question is, why are we here? and how did we get here? and why do we get old and die? ... there is no death in God. if you think about it, if there was no such thing as Satan, questiones like this would not exist. Humans have a spiritual identity, that is bound by a physical form or format, in which the one cannot exist without the other. It is this physical form that is begotten via the sperm and the egg, according to God's law of reproduction. but your existence in this particular form, has a beggining, and an end. But if you were an eternal thought in God, way back before the foundation of our universe, then "you" never did have a beginning, and can never have an end. God expressed us into a physical form here on earth to be tried and tested. It is only in this physical form that a person can feel pain, sorrow and anguish etc. God allowed man to fall, and God had to have an opposition. This being in order to express The great attributes or charracteristics that were in Him. It's not that God created evil,.....God created lucifer on a free moral agent basis, but God must have known according to His foreknowledge, that lucifer would become His enemy. He could not be an omnicient God if He did not know that. The great battle that took place between God and Lucifer,..took place in a supernatural dimension. this whole event which probably went on for billions of years is something far to complicated for us insignificant humans to understand. But one thing we do know, is that Satan was ultimately cast down to Earth, where he began his diabolical quest to design an intelectual and scientific age, and age of disbeief in God.....this is exactly how he has been apposing his enemy, God. God's intension for His orriginal creation was an innocent "timeless" existence , which had no such thing as death. But at the same time, we have to aknowledge, that God allowed it to happen for His own devine purpose, and this is what a lot of people don't understand. When God braught the animal kingdom into existence, starting with the lowest form, to the highest form, He knew..., as an omnicient God, that Satan would find that creation,...(the Highest form) Satan knew that his seed would mix with Eve,........This is where 99% of Ministers around the world start getting exposed.....(I hope you are reading between the lines, Sir) It's not the adultry that God could not forgive,.....It's the defiling of the orriginal blood line ,that God could not forgive, outside of a "Blood atonement" The blood line was defiled, which braught about the death process, so God required the "Blood" of an innocent animal as an atonement. God created lucifer to serve His own purpose, in terms of the circumstances that would come upon the human race, as a result of Satans deception, combined with the free will of Adams fallen race. God required innocent blood as a temporary atonement, untill He Himself became a permanent atonement to His fallen race, by taking on the form of flesh via a created sperm and egg, and was born from a virgin woman and not via a sex act. I hope you see it Sir.
I'm afraid I still don't see it. I still don't think you have addressed the question of why Satan (or anyone else) would fight a war he knows he is sure to loose. Think of decision theory, for instance, which states that it is irrational for a being to make a choice which it knows to not be optimal for its own wellbeing. Since we agree that Satan is not irrational than he can't possibly make choices that obviously lead to his destruction. Your responses are quite fun to read sir. Most kind of you to take your time to write. Perhaps I am just missing something in your words and will understand someday far in the future when I am older and wiser.
your observation about (,.... ) is correct. I am a British immigrant. I don't profess to be too wise, but I don't believe there can be any fault in the Bible. It's a spiritual book, and I believe God reveales it to whoever he will. That conflict between God and Satan, is a battle that is now taking place in the mind of man. Faith against reason, or belief against disbelief, the one that gets the upper hand is the one you feed the most. Everything that exists was braught into existence By allmighty God, whether it be natural or spiritual. God had to have a reason, don't you think? there can't be any doubt that Satan was created by God. or how did he get here? Satan is not in a direct conflict with God in a military sense, his conflict with God is deception towards Gods creation. he knows his end is comming and he is going around like a wounded Lion seeking whom he may devour. in other-words he is going to take, by deception, as many souls as he can down with him. and he has had a marvelous success. perhaps you have a better explanation as to why he exists, but the way I have explained it, is the only way that I understand it.
If I understand this right and I do because like god I am infallible (dont ask me why ask god he created me this way) God is an asshole who believes in nothing, has no morals and imposes chaos and disorder on the universe while Satan is fighting for reason, intelligence and taking away gods power through un-belief in order to stop the corruption. Satan is like Batman and god is gotham God created satan and the angels to keep the humans in line but he saw god breaking those same laws and he felt cheated and deceived and even though it's hopeless he fights for the sake of principle or to put it another way you make an excellent argument for atheism
well I don't know whether I can agree with what you say, because God is the Creator, and He is not mocked, regardless of what anyone says about Him. God is not an unforgiving God, and He defineately has the ability to wink at spiritual ignorance. But it is also a very silly thing to directly challenge God, or be contemptious toward Him. John Lennon, of the Beatles did that, and out the window went any grace towards him that every man has, resulting in Satan making a target of him. you simply cannot win. Secondly, there is no dis-order in the universe, you have to realise that there was a time when no substance or matter existed, in any form what so ever. The Charracteristics that were in God, could not be expressed, if no substance was spoken into existence, and He, existed alone. You and I were an attribute in His great thinking, this required an Earth where He could bring His charracteristics into maifestation. This has nothing to do with Athiesm. Whether you support athiesm or not, doesn't make any difference, any one who doesn't believe in a Creator, needs to go outside on a dark night and look up into the univers, something that had a beggining could not have produced itself. Thirdly,Scientific intellegence was never God's original intension, when He produced Man from the dust of the Earth. God placed them here on Earth to live in a timeless innocent existence, " they knew not, that they were naked" untill the Serpent deceived the woman via Satans inspiration, Lucifer was cast down to earth where he found that Serpent, and it was via this Highest form in the creation that Satan accomplished a scientific Eden of his own, in opposition to God. Scientific intelegence became "Joint Heir" with the hybridization of Adams race. and that is why there are grave yards just down the road from you, "incase you haven't noticed." Just look at the technology of the world today. it never was the will of God, One can only marvell at Satans succes. I will leave it to your imagination what his end is going to be, in terms of God allowing Einstein and them how to split the Atom, and it won't be the first time that God's creation on Planet Earth has completely anialated itself. Fact is fact, and reality is reality, you are getting older, and you are going to die. being an atheist, or supporting atheism, is the most futile thing imaginable.

So John Lennon was shot at 40 because he mocked God, whereas Stalin was allowed to murder millions before dying at the age of 73?

Your God is a shithead.

Come now Alfred, I don't believe you mean that. God has an apointed time for any person, and His enemy, Satan is going to get you, the moment you go out of Gods provided way. that doesn't neccesary mean some guy is going to shoot you, that is just the way it happened with John Lennon. Satan knows exactly how to destroy a person in various ways and God knows how to clean a person up, and put him to service. You are right about Joseph Stalin, he was nothing more than a deveous underhand murderer, in my opinion he was worse than Adolf Hitler. but you have to understand one thing, in terms of what Hitler and Stalin were actually purposed for. Did you know that God raised these two individuals to bring about a specific purpose, and that purpose was to force Israel back to Their ancient homeland under National forces. Did the scriptures not say that Israel would return.? The question that a lot of people ask, is why did the Jews suffer like that? and why the Haulocast on the Jewish Nation in particular. the answer is in the fact that they rejected and crucified their Mesaih, they just could not see their God veiled behind human flesh. and if anyone wants to dissagree with that, let me refresh your memory, about what happened two thousand years back. and here is the exact reason. when Pontious Pilate asked the jews, "what shall I do with this innocent Man"? the Jews responded by saying, Crucify Him, Crucify Him, let His blood be upon us, and our children, and our childrens children. and for two thousand years that is exactly what happened to them, they were finally expelled from their homeland in AD 71, by the Roman General, Titus.and were scattered into every Nation. They rejected their God, so God could not get to them via Spiritual revelation, so He had to use national forces to fulfill scripture. Stalin And Hitler murdered millions, thats right. but neither of them had any representation in God in the first place, so you can just imagine where they are now.
Oh now it makes perfect sense he's not a shithead he's a fuckhead
There is no point in cursing God Sir, The whole life cycle of creation that has taken place here on Earth, from beggining to end, whether it's good or bad, is to bring about a certain outcome that God has planned for His creation. God is no respecter of any particular person, in terms of how succesfull in life he may be. he put man here on Earth as a "free moral agent" giving him a free will, to make his own decisions. That is why it is written that whatever you sew in life, that is what you are going to reap. God is always there to bail you out when you make a wrong decision. it's also written. "Draw near unto Me and I will draw near unto you." it doesn't serve any purpose trying to curse God, why don't you do the "opposite" to what Satan tells you to do. you will soon find out, that God has a better purpose for you, and you will soon find out why God made you a beneficiary of life in the first place. because "How, by taking thought, can you add one inch to your stature."?
You make less sense the more you explain it Do we have free will or has god planned a certain outcome, you cant have it both ways and I realise there is no point in cursing but it's a lot of fun
It is true that omniscience and fate conflict fundamentally with free will.
why does it not make sense sir?, you do have a free will, but because God knows the beginning from the end, He knows exactly what decisions you are going to make. The decisions you make in life will reflect the nature that is in you, and you cannot be what you are not. God has made a representation of it in nature. An Eagle is born an Eagle, and a Crow is born a Crow. An Eagle is a heavenly bird. the higher he flies, the further he can see, and no other bird is presurised to follow him. in other-words, they will both act out the charracteristics of what they are, according to the nature of their species. In the sciptures it says, ( How a man thinks in his heart, so "is" he.) If you think it's a lot of fun cursing God, then you probably won't have too trouble figureing out what side of the fence you were born on, and what, or who, your representation was back there in the beginning. You also shouldn't have too much trouble figureing out whether God has any justification for you, in terms of the price He paid for the redemption of the sons of God. ( Adams Line) Whatever your representation was in the beginning sir, you are going to act accordingly in life. Take a look at a Hybrid plant sir, very succesfull and magestic in life, but look at that same plant when its dead. it's dead and hybrid, and never did have the ability to propagate itself back to the orriginal. If it's still fun cursing God, then you shouldn't be too dissapointed on your death-bed one day. because after-all, a parden is not a parden unless it's accepted as a parden, and Gods own blood atonement is either for you, or it's not for you. What kind are you sir? I guess you know what I mean.

Unfortunately those of us who believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster take a different view of such matters. I'd explain more if I could remember what what it was.

If your god created me or created a system that would inevitably create me in such a way that I would for whatever reason be smart enough to not believe in myths then it is equally as likely that Allah created both of us with evil souls so that we would both believe different but equally wrong things. I point this out because I dont beleive in any god so when I call your god a fuckhead I am referring to any creator who would punish their creation because the creator made an imperfect creation or even deliberately flawed as you seem to imply. What kind am I? No I dont know what you mean, none of your analogies make sense, most plant hybrid can produce offspring unlike animal hybrids. There is a crow species the Yellow-billed chough which has been seen at the summit of everest, almost 5 times the height that most eagles reach. You keep insisting that a person has free will then saying things are pre-determined. Even if you got your facts right I agree that free will is an illusion, that why I'm calling your omniscient god an asshole, he belongs in hell. You make no sense to me because I when I argue a point using logic and reason you reply with 600 year old rhetoric and non-nonsensical babble and that is disapointing because I like to have my mistakes pointed out to me or discover new ideas.
I don't know about flying spagetti monsters, but i'm sure there are a few indescribable things flying around in the regions of the lost. Imagine the "horrific thing" waiting for you there in that dimension. You cannot say that God hasn't bestowed any grace upon you. he kept your heart beating while you were cursing Him, didn't He? it's better to Praise God, Alfred, as apposed to cursing Him. there is a lot of eternal benefits in it, and cursing God cannot do your health any good. and i'm sure you value your health.
Sir, God never did punished His creation for anything that is beyond a persons controll. and He did not cause His creation to fall. He is not an unjust God. but it is true to say that He did "Allow" His creation to fall. that is a completely different story. but He did that in order to express the redemptive saviour attribute that was in Him, as the all encompassing , self existing, intrinsic creator. You have to remember Sir, that we are not infinite. and we live in a world that is full of injustice from a natural stand point, and a world that is full of questionable things,in terms of what we would consider a perfect world ,or what we would consider the perfect existence here on earth, that God intended. God had a certain requirement back there in the beginning, when Man fell, and he "did" fall Sir. that is why His creation gets old and dies. God never did pre -program Eve to be hoodwinked by the Serpent. But God, being a just God, new that His creation could never meet His requirement on a permanent basis. He knew that His creation could not regenerate himself back to it's orriginal innocent existence. That is why God , being a just God, and a God that was mindfull of you, took on the form of flesh two thousand years back. Contrary to popular belief, God did not send some other person here, two thousand years back to die for the human race. God did not die by representation Sir. it was Jehovah God Himself that took on the form of flesh. it was Jehovah God Himself, that paid His own blood atonement reqiurement, thereby setting you free Sir, In other-words, you are free to go Sir, because , He became you, that you might become Him. Your ticket to eternal life has been paid for Sir. If there is one thing that you have to do, to add to that, then he died in vain. don't tell me he is an unjust God. It's a shocking thing to imagine, how the great creator, could be so mindfull of you and I, that He was prepared to allow His own creation to despise and reject Him, in His physical expression, two thousand years back, and submit Himself to the brutality of the Roman Empire, so that you and I Sir, don't have to face the finality of death, which was braught about , by the fall of Adams race. Humanity could not wish for a better God.

SANITY-PRESERVING CENSORSHIP NOTICE: If anyone really wants more of this sort of bollocks, they will find similar nutters handing out leaflets in their nearest shopping centre. Any further comments of this nature will be deleted as boring.

it is interesting to read peoples views on life and religion. it makes one realise that we are all kind of different. I don't think there is any harm in it. There are groups of people around the USA that believe in that particular Serpent seed doctrine, and they follow a man by the name of William Branham, who I believe expounded on the book of genesis, and pointed that Serpent seed thing out. It sounds very much by the way you write, and your understanding, that you must be one of these followers. However, there is a book that I can recomend that you read. it goes by the name of, The two Babylons, by Hyslop. I'm not sure what his innitials are,but the book is often refered to as Hyslops two babylons. It is a very interesting book explaining the orrigins of a lot of different beliefs that are around today.
The book is by Alexander Hyslop
Standing somewhere in the Shadows, you will find Jesus, and you will know Him by the nail scars in His hands” This is the opening verse of a song that is commonly sung amongst Christians around the world. Though touching as it may sound, and perhaps harmless and joyful in its presentation. A decision nevertheless needs to be made, as to the reality of God as a person in our present grace dispensation. this being in terms of Christians being under the delusion, that Jesus can perhaps be found standing in a shadow somewhere, with nail scars in His hands. It was however a possibility that could have existed, had we been anywhere near the land of Israel, two thousand years ago, where Jesus could have perhaps been found standing out of the direct Middle East sunshine. This possibility no longer existing, by reason of the fact that, Jehovah God, having completed His atonement requirement, no longer exists in a flesh and blood format, and therefore can no longer be known after the flesh, but exists only as the Holy Spirit, in His present Grace dispensation of time. This also being underscored by the fact that Jesus Christ, never was in any way lost in the first place, and does not, at any time need to be found by anyone. Therefore, if any finding is going to be done, it will be done by that Great Eagle, searching for His own kind that went missing, before the foundation of the Earth, and destined to be made manifest at the end time. Unless of course, some individual happens to be standing in a shadow somewhere, suggesting that he is in fact Jesus of Nazareth. but on closer inspection, revealing that no such nail scars exist in his hands, and obviously not Jesus of Nazareth after all, and the only burden that he would like to relieve one of, would be a small object of about three inches square, commonly referred to as a wallet. Or perhaps some individual with robes down to his feet, standing in a shadow somewhere, with the “sweetest” of voices emanating from him, in his attempt to advertize a sale or promotion, whereby the relatives of all humanity can be relieved from eternal damnation at a discounted price. Futhermore The Great Jehovah God, and His marvelous savior Characteristic, or attribute, not only made Himself known to His creation, by the written Word, commonly known as the Holy Bible. but also undertook to express Himself in His great natural creations, as a representation in type, of the whole plan of redemption for His elected few, to marvel and wonder at. His great natural creations freely given by Himself, as a gift to each of His elected few, that have lived and died, recognizing their day and age they were given to see. The first of these great manifestations, being the infinity of the universe that surrounds us, which in itself is an expression of the fact, that an awe inspiring Creator, is the author of the most mindboggling intangible reality called life. This great universe, that surrounds us, with its mathematical perfection, and staggering beauty of its constellations, is but a small portion that is visible to us, via the physicality of our human existence on Planet Earth. The great constellations starting with Virgo, the Virgin, as a representation of Christ’s first coming, born of a virgin, through Immaculate Conception. and ending with the Constellation of Leo, as a representation of Christ’s second coming, to Israel as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. God, having laid the foundations, in His creation, of a Planetary Constellation representing each and every manifested son of God that ever existed in His great thinking. This would not only apply to the present Adamic civilization on Planet Earth, but as well as all Pre-Adamic life cycles of creation on Planet Earth, and elsewhere in the infinity of the universe, which he created for His own purpose. This fact being a humbling reality, in terms of this great awe inspiring God, being so mindful of His own, who are seemingly so insignificant in comparison. The second of these masterful manifestations, being the great pyramid in Egypt. These pyramids, having been purposed by God, to be designed and built by His faithful servant Enoch, who built them as a reflection on Earth, in solid stone, of the constellation of stars in the universe, directly above them. His great plan of redemption is thereby expressed, in terms of the mathematical numeric’s of the pyramid base, which culminates to a single capstone at the top of the pyramid, this being a representation of Christ, crowned as the sovereign God over His elected bride, down through the ages. and is clearly reflected, in the most accurate construction, ever erected by man, on planet Earth. Though this capstone, being a symbolic representation of Christ, was nevertheless rejected during the pyramids construction, and was never placed on the great pyramid in Egypt, as a completion of this whole masterpiece . This capstone being rejected for some mathematical reason in its construction, and perhaps unbeknown to its builders at the time , was foreshadowing Christ’s rejection by His own ,almost three thousand years later. God having purposed this capstone to be rejected, by reason of “stone”, which was used in its construction, being a solid substance, that could not in any way, substitute for God’s own flesh and blood, that would be required to die as a permanent atonement for Adams fallen race. Christ himself, having paid the ultimate price, would one day be crowned as the lion of the tribe of Judah. This being symbolically represented by the lion of the constellation of Leo, that stands guard near the great pyramid in Egypt, as a majestic masterpiece, cut from solid stone, as it stares into eternity, as the long suffering weather beaten icon of God, patiently waiting for that glorious hour that will finally fulfill its purpose. It is however an unfortunate fact, that this great masterpiece, now being commonly referred to as the Sphinx, was later re-designed and carved by the Egyptian civilization, after the antediluvian destruction, to represent an Egyptian Pharaoh’s head, on a lion’s body. the pharaoh’s head, now replacing the original lions head, being completely out of proportion to the rest of the lion’s body. The lions body being still in its original form, as it once stood. The great pyramid in Egypt, and the staggering mathematical perfection of its construction, must have no doubt been an awesome sight to behold. with its finely fitted and highly polished casing stones, as it glistened in the sunlight, testifying of the greatness of God, as an inspiration to the ingenuity of man, and the years of toil it must have taken in its construction. This great pyramid, being positioned exactly on the four cardinal points of the compass, together with its highly polished casing stones, casted no shadow on the ground at the time, regardless of the position of the everyday sun around it. The marvelous redemption plan of God expressed in solid stone, in His compassion and love for His own elected few. Though, the great pyramid’s construction took place in a scientifically advanced age , which was ultimately destroyed by the antediluvian destruction. These pyramids, nevertheless still stand as a challenge to eternity, and can still be seen today, with the absence of the capstone on the great pyramid, clearly conspicuous, as it stands on the Giza Plateau in Cairo Egypt. It is also interesting to note, that man in his present technological and scientific advancement, still lack the capabilities, to in any way reproduce, or remove these great monuments of God, even if they were compelled to. This being, by reason of our present technological advancements, being nowhere near the technological level of the age in which these monuments were constructed, and the method of their construction , still remain a mystery to man today. The avenue of scientific knowledge, which was presented to Eve by Satan, via the Serpent, was excepted, according to her own gullible disposition, as an alternative to an existence of simplicity and innocence before God. By Michael A Wilson Winona Minnesota USA

Ah, the mystery of the Great Pyramid. Read carefully: http://www.science-projects.com/Pyramid.htm

The avenue of scientific knowledge, which was presented to Eve by Satan, via the Serpent, was excepted, according to her own gullible disposition, as an alternative to an existence of simplicity and innocence before God.

Where in your magic book does it mention science? The knowledge in question is that of good and evil. Your notion of simplicity and innocence is simple ignorance, a subject which you appear to have studied to degree level.

It's wonderful how you know all this stuff, without any doubt nor a shred of evidence. Ever heard of the sin of pride? That includes presuming to know things that you simply wish or feel might be true, and failing to give other views due consideration.

I'm pretty sure we could easily remove the pyramids. At least give a little credit to atomic tec. And what about the larger Aztec Pyramids? I think your essay lacks completeness.
did you know, that omongst all the different beliefs and different philosophies there has to be a truth. A counterfeit dollar has to be someone's attempt to impersonate, or copy the orriginal. otherwise it cannot be regarded as a coutrfeit. God would not be a just God if He did not give us the truth. But the problem comes when a person cannot believe it, and God cannot show it to a person that cannot believe it. but at the same time God is obligated to show it to a person that has a serious interest in the mysteries that are hidden between the lines of the word of God in it's face value. What I have written about the book of Genesis, is what God has shown me via spiritual revelation, and that is how God will show it to anyone. It's not a question of being arrogantly proud, and ofcours there is no way of producing evedence to what God reveales to a person. what God does for someone, He has to do the exact same for anyone, if He is approached on the same basis. But one thing is true, not everyone has the ability to put it into words. we are all different in that respect. If a person cannot believe the Bible, then he is going to latch onto some other intelectual explanation about the orrigins of Man etc. and he is going to believe that, it doesn't mean that he is a bad person, but he never will know, if he really has the truth of it, and will live his whole life in constant defence of some belief that he is not sure of himself, That is why the Bible brings about so many arguments amongst people.

Funny how God reveals different things to people, isn't it? Otherwise all believers would be united. Oh, sorry, perhaps some of them aren't really from God. So again, we're back to presumption. You believe you have a channel to God, but those other guys over there, who disagree with you, surely don't. And that's not arrogant?

I understand what you are saying, and God does reveal different things to different people, but God cannot reaveal something that is contrary to His own Word, because after all He wrote it. A person that has no representation in God, will have absolutely no interest in it anyway. But there are also a lot of people that do have representation in God, but don't realise it, untill The Great Creator starts to tune in to that gene of God that they are born with. God might even bring a person right to his death-bed before he see's it. In other-words, a Salmon was born a Salmon, and a see snake, was born a see snake. all God does is cast the net. If you are a part of God, then you never did have a beginning, and you can no more go lost than God can, but God has to get His own kind to see it. He also deals with every individual in different ways, according to their personalities and gifts that they were born with. No single individual on earth, can say who they are. only God knows that. and if a person happens to be arrogant, well let me tell you, when God is finished with him, he sure won't have any interest in arrogance.

Blimey, your God is a dull old stick, isn't he? Any further ramblings on these lines will be deleted.

Something interesting OKLO: AN UNAPPRECIATED COSMIC PHENOMENON "In 1972, French scientists discovered that several natural concentrations of uranium ore had become critical and flared up some "2 billion" years ago at Oklo, Gabon. The concentration and configuration of the natural uranium and surrounding materials at that time had been just right to sustain fission. The Oklo Mines. Source: In fact, the analysis of the nuclear waste in the burned rocks demonstrated that plutonium had also been created. This implies that natural breeder reactors are also possible, raising the possibility of hitherto unappreciated, long-lived heat sources deep in the earth, in the other planets, and inside some of the stars. Don't worry that the Oklo phenomenon might occur today on the earth's surface. The concentration of fissionable U-235 has fallen considerably in the last 2 billion years due to its radioactive decay. But, deep inside the earth and other astronomical bodies, nuclear criticality might still be possible due to different pressures, densities, etc. In a stimulating and generally overlooked paper in Eos, J.M. Herndon proffers four important natural phenomena that may involve natural fission reactors. Geomagnetic reversals. In the deep earth, where pressures and densities are high, natural nuclear reactors may generate intermittent bursts of heat -- just as they did at Oklo -- and thereby cause the earth's dynamo to falter and reverse. Planetary heating. Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune emit much more energy than they receive from the sun. Natural nuclear reactors could be the reason. Stellar thermonuclear ignition. Astronomers assume that the high temperatures required to ignite the thermonuclear reactions powering stars come from gravitational collapse, but this source does not seem adequate to some scientists. Nuclear fission reactors could ignite stars just as they do H-bombs. Missing matter. Natural nuclear reactors are finicky. There may be many star-sized, non-luminous objects out there that were never ignited and that we cannot see through our telescopes. Science Frontiers Online Evidence at Mohenjo-Daro When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals? Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal. Other cities have been found in northern India that show indications of explosions of great magnitude. One such city, found between the Ganges and the mountains of Rajmahal, seems to have been subjected to intense heat. Huge masses of walls and foundations of the ancient city are fused together, literally vitrified! And since there is no indication of a volcanic eruption at Mohenjo-Daro or at the other cities, the intense heat to melt clay vessels can only be explained by an atomic blast or some other unknown weapon.The cities were wiped out entirely. While the skeletons have been carbon-dated to 2500 BC, we must keep in mind that carbon-dating involves measuring the amount of radiation left. When atomic explosions are involved, that makes then seem much younger.
This comments thread is giving me a headache. Will the Christians kindly shove off?
The Christians are gone, Here comes Hare Krishna, the reprobate.
Come now,you guys. Enough has been said about Earth's Earliest Ages, and the mysteries of the bible to last a lifetime. you cannot expect everyone to agree with it. so CHANGE THE SUBJECT NOW.
It's true that people tend to harp on a particular subject. But regardless of what subject people start to discuss, it somehow tends to come out to a discussion on the mystery of life, and the present reality of man on Earth. As the astro-physicist, Steven Hawkins once said, Who are we? and why are we here? this is a subject that still remains a mystery, and a subject that is a very interesting one. As we all know, there are many different explanations about it, as well as many different religeous philosophies trying to explain it. But one thing we do know, "SantMatt" never created it, "Confusious" never created it, "Budda" never created it, and neither did the Egyptian God "Ra" have anything to do with it. but we are still faced with the preverbial question, where did it come from? Did it evolve? if it did evolve, then what did it evolve from?, because there was a time that substance or matter did not exist at all. It takes thousands of hours, and hundreds of Engineers, to design and build a Jumbo jet, which incidently use Benouli's Principle, to create what is refered to as Lift. This fact can be clearly seen in the design of a birds wing. So if someone had to design and build a Jumbo Jet, then who designed and made the bird, which is infineitely more complicated. Jehovah and the Bible, so far has been regarded as the ultimate explanation as to the orrigins of life, and this is clearly reflected in the one thousand or more different denominational beliefs revoving around this same Bible. However,most tend to bind themselves to a dogmatic, or legalistic stance, which they believe is required by God, in order for them to receive any understanding as to how or why God created them. in most cases, no further insight is entered into, in terms of the huge amount of information that might be written between the lines,and this is the problem that often gives rise to what is refered to as "Silly Christianity." If someone is going to believe what the Bible says, then let him acknowledge this. There is nowhere in the Bible, that suggests that God created the Earth in six literal days, as even some very educated people believe, because it is clearly written that a day to God, is "as" a thousand years, and a thousand years is "as" a day. It does not say that a day "is" a thousand years. .This clearly signifying that it could well be a million years to God, or a billion years to God, or perhaps a hundred billion years in the making. which I personally believe it did take to bring the universe and life into existence. this being from a human standpoint, because God does not exist in time. How it happened, remains the greatest mystery.
You believe that god created us but ra didn't? Ra is far more likely because he is the 'older' god, jehovah doesn't show up for thousands of years after ra. It would seem infinitely more likely that jehova is really a naughty Egyptian god playing tricks on gullible people so they...well I cant imagine why a god would play tricks on humans I'm not a silly christian. Of course if a god really created humans there should be 3-400,000 year old scripture, which could tell us how to achieve faster than light travel so that we could explore the universe he clearly put a lot of effort into creating. Of course thats just a suggestion but more useful than a guide on how to treat your indentured slaves.

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isn't it a strange thing, in this highly educated and scientific world that we live in, people are still so narrow minded and almost completely blind, in terms of the reality of their own existence. The possibility of any previous civilizations on this earth is almost considered madness. In our present civilizations quest to go to Mars, in the hope of finding life there, little do they realise that people have been there before, way back in the remote past. What would the particular reason be, that we are the only ones on Earth that ever became an advanced civilization.? given the fact that present man has an average lifespan of three score and ten years. so what does he really know.? God must look down and laugh at us. Do people really think, that this great Creator of life, only created once here on Earth.? and what about other Planets that might be a thousand times bigger than Earth?. There can be no doubt, that there must be hundreds of thousands of civilizations on various size planets in the universe, and Planet Earth is just one of them. GH Pember was obviously a guy that saw a lot more than most people realise.
I think a planet 1000 times the size of the earth would probably be a pretty tough place to live for any sort of life that vaguely resembles ours, possibly even being large enough to form into a star. Jupiter is about 350 times the size of the earth. Cute thought though.
You might be right, if you are refereing to the gravity of a large planet and the relative size of us humans. I just don't think there is any way of knowing exactly what God has out there, in terms of size. There defineately are civilizations out there, but God has put them so far from each-other, and from our reach, for the simple reason that we could never be emotionally prepared to face another civilization, that might be a million years or more ahead of us. or a million years behind us. I think the human race would die of heart failure, or shock. Just imagine it?
If I happened to be present at the event of an alien contact I would probably check to see if any of the alien babes were hot, ask if they had the secret to eternal youth, cheap, clean electricity and ask to see what their latest video games were. They would inform me that they didn't become interstellar travelers by chasing girls, vanity or having meaningless fun and give me Ayn Rand's latest piece of jaunty fiction (Or Mao's Little Red Book, whatever) at which point I would loose interest. If they said "We are here to usher you into the age of Aquarius and turn you into a being of pure light. The reason the earth is screwed up isn't human error and free will but just because of astronomy." I would run for the hills and find a cave to hide in till they left. No heart attacks.
I don't know about the "Hot Chics" or the hot babes, but I would be careful not to get too close to one of them. they might look good on the outside, but who knows what might be on the inside. your heart might not be able to cope with it, and you might die of heart failure anyway LOL. But at the same time, the question that often comes to mind, is, if any advanced civilization has found the elixer of life etc, and they are technologically advanced enough to travel across light years of space, then why would they want to come here? Planet Earth is so insignificant in comparison to the countless billions of planetary systems in the universe. There are more planets out there then there are grains of sand on the earth. so what would the attraction be ? unless they just happend to come upon our planet by pure chance. that is the mystery of all these UFO's people are seing. unless they are not mechanical devices at all, but in fact, investigating "pockets of light" coming from a different diamention into ours. sometimes moving slowly, and sometime making unbelievably fast ninety degree turns and instantly dissapearing. but then again, what are they looking for?
Those investigating pockets of light that you are refering to might well be God checking things over here, before all hell breaks loose here on Planet Earth again. Just the same as the warning God gave the Antedeluvian world before the earth was shifted on it's axis, by those scientific people, throwing the polar regions into the direct sun and causing a deluge which destroyed that whole civilization.

I assume you were there when all this was going on, since you are so confident about it, "Hermes"?

Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, but neither you nor I were there. I told you the truth about everything else. Earths earliest ages, the fall of man, Serpent Seed, the Great Pyramids. the Antedeluvian destruction, to mention but a few. and I have barely scratched the surface. would you prefer it, if I told you a lie. ? and what would I gain by it seeing that you have absolutely no idea who I am. Would you like to know what that was, that exploded in Tunguska Siberia in 1908,? I can tell you that too, if you like.

How do you know Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon? It's considered likely because accounts are supported by independent evidence. The "Fall of Man", on the other hand is a fairy tale.

Your contributions are neither original, amusing nor enlightening, so please don't bother in future.

I think you will be perhaps a little more enlightened a little later in life, when you begin to realize that your destiny with your final appointment is fast aproaching. You are going to be forced to acknowledge that Man did fall afterall, otherwise you would not be in that situation in the first place,and that front loader would not be waisting it's time digging a six foot hole for you. That's right, we are all destined to fall, and it's defineately not "orriginal" or amusing. did you say that the fall of man is a fairytale? without any disrespect to you Sir, but I have a feeling that you don't know what you are talking about. It might not be such a good "contribution" but I urge you take a closer look at those grey hairs and those stooping shoulders. that in itself should shake you back to reality.

We're all going to die, that's true. Unlike you, though, I am prepared to believe that Daddy can't make it all better (providing that in life you observed Daddy's arbitrary and somewhat self-contradictory rules, that is).

When you come to the end of the road, and you find out that you were "right" in what you say, then you have nothing to loose. But what if you come to the end, and you realise that you have been wrong. Then you are going to die alone. Your opportuneity to live again in a timeless and problem free existence is lost forever, with no chance, or time to retrieve it. The conclusions that you have come to, in regards to" contradictions" are based purely on human intelectual reasoning, which is only available so long as the blood keeps flowing to your brain. When that begins to stop, then your reasoning is going to fade out Sir. It will be a good time to have someone with you, to take you across the curtain of time. I can tell by the way you write, that you are a very educated person. But take my advise Sir, regardless of how educated we might be, don't "gamble", via human reasoning, with the greatest gift of all, which God has already given you, as a downpayment.
Just one question, are you talking about a particular god? I mean this is the wrong place to mention this, but it is really confusing when a theist doesn't name their god or mention their denomination. For the moment I'll assume it's Thor.
The god Thor, is just a figment of some Viking's over active imagination. there is only one living God and that is "Jehovah" or Elohim, the all encompassing self existing one, who's image you and I were created in, the auther of life, and no other god exist's beside Him. There is no mention of Thor in the Word of God. God is a spirit,and Jesus Christ was the "Person" of God, and it was Him that paid the ultimate price, and not some imaginary, muscle bound character weilding a fifty pound war hammer. There is also no mention of any particular denomination having anything to do with it either. it was a "Divine Person" that took your place that day and not some religeous organisation.

Unfortunately the evil Loki has clouded your mind and is preventing you from seeing the truth. This Elohim you speak of is just the figment of some ancient middle-eastern imagination.

Wait, wait, wait, waaaaait a minute, thor isn't real? You are telling me that Thor the Norse god isn't real? How did I not know this? Odin is still real though right?
Well, i'll tell you what, Sir. I am fully prepared to tell this Evil Loki, to stop pulling the wool over my eyes, and stop deceiving me all these years, into believing that Jehovah is the only living God. " Get thee behind me, thou evil Loki"..... I'm sure that he has got the message. Now that I am fully delivered, the only thing left for me to do, is to urge you to show me the truth, which you say that I was blinded to. In other-words there must be a way for me to get into contact with "your" God. Surely He must be a living God, ready to accept me with open arms. " if you know what I'm saying" because you woudn't want someone to think, that a man of your calibur, would ever believe in a god that was just a figment of your imagination. ofcourse not, now why would anybody think that?

I have given up on those Norse Gods, too drab and old-fashioned.  Keep up!

Just this morning a representative of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster knocked on my door and asked me to devote my life to the worship of His Noodliness. So that's where I'm getting my spiritual munchies now.

I think Thor and Odin are big buddies, probably both Viking War gods. As I mentioned,they are usually depicted weilding war Hammers or battle swords, and chasing females (valkyries) around in an imaginary place called Valhalla, lol, or something like that. do they really exist? I doubt it, but i'm sure some people believe that. No wonder those Vikings, weren't happy, unless they were killing something. it didn't matter either, what it was, so long as it moved.

Wow, you really are an expert on these matters. This why you are taken so seriously.

Yes the Scandanavians immediately became pacifists upon discovering christianity like all the other monotheist, oh wait no they didn't, in fact they attacked their eastern and southern neighbors and killed anyone who wouldn't convert.

Exciting, isn't it?

[Remainder removed for not being exciting nor indeed interesting. The same will occur for future boring posts of this nature. And before anyone cries censorship, this ain't a public debating chamber.]

WOW, I am surprised. it was quite interesting following that guy, whatever was deleted. It seems like someone did take him serous after all. It's a real Pitty. happy chappy John USA

"that guy" is you, you pathetic oaf. And editing your burblings about Jesus does not mean I take them any more seriously than the spammers who post about red hot cum or cheap mortgages.

Funny, I always thought the whole serpent story was a penis allegory and an attempt to prohibit cunnilingus (a peach would have been a better image than an apple, but let's not quibble). More seriously, an adamantine adherence to the Bible as "true" history seems to be sadly wrongheaded. As Wittgenstein so brilliantly pointed out "might we not say: It is important that this narrative should not be more than quite averagely historically possible just so that this should not be taken as the essential, decisive thing? So that the letter should not be believed more strongly than is proper and the spirit may receive its due."
You talking about cunnilingus Mister. what about when the worms are eating her body while she's lying six feet under the ground, "you silly man" (More seriously, an adamantine adherence to the Bible as "true" history seems to be sadly wrongheaded.) " according to who Mister?" God has always used simplicity to hide Himself. God is still God, and He knows how to use a little bit of simplicity to rattle a person right off his high horse too. What do you think you are deeling with Mister.? do you really think that you, or any other person is rightfully justified to take it upon himself, to be Gods own devine interpreter.? When He said, "Let there be light" perhaps a billion years later, an atom burst, and the sun came into existence, it's a fact Mister, and that very light has kept you alive so far. You need to sit down, and do some seroius thinking, instead of talking "Tripe"
I'm not sure what the hell you are trying to convey about "worms eating her body" but damn! You are creepy!!
One thing for sure, the Serpent never played up to Eve, in order to eat a bunch of apples with her. Most people believe that, and even scientists have gone there to Mesopotamia to test the acidity, and alkalinity of the soil, in an attempt to figure out exactly what fruit it was. the final conclusion, according to their tests, is that it was an apricot. (eat of the fruit) is the terminology that the Bible uses to describe a sex act, but in this case, it was the woman that was the fruit tree. The reason that people don't see it, is because it is written in such simplicity, that they miss it completely. They realised they were "naked",after they ate of the fruit and then Cain was born.. An apple or an apricot do not have the qualities of making a person realise that they are naked.

These are the same sort of scientists, I guess, who might investigate how Santa Claus manages to maintain a herd of reindeer at the North Pole.

Why do people think that god cares so much about sex? Why is god so freaked out about two people doing it but not at all bothered that telling them about more important things like soap or bacteria how to desalinize salt water? Why? Its because people invented god and people are very nervous about sex, especially the ones who tend to like religion.
I don't think it was the actual sex act, that was the problem, because they were put there with male and female genitals. it was the outcome of that particular sex act, that caused the casm between God and His creation, this bringing the whole creation down, including the animal kingdom, and also causing the animal kingdom to go into a wild survival mode. have you ever wondered why there are very few wild animals that don't scatter at the sight of a human.?
I have wondered about that, someone told me that the animals that didn't run away were hunted to extinction by humans, what a crazy idiot, the only extinct animals are ones that noah couldn't fit on the boat. It's a real shame god didn't tell him to build it bigger I would have liked to see a dodo.

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Hi, and thank you for this wonderful opportunity to read various views of reality. It really is enlightening to read how different people look at the universe from our human perspective and come to such diverse conclusions. I read Pember's book back in the late '70s, and thought that it was a interesting attempt to reconcile geology and various religious views and spiritual beliefs. So please continue to provide this forum for serious banter. I would encourage everyone to avoid ridicule if possible. It never seems to help anyone to find truth.
well, yes it is a very good book, the demonology part of it was a bit complicated, but it did open the door for us to see, the vast ages of time that lay before our Adamic Age. The earth is a lot older than we can imagine, and there was more than likely many ages of Advanced Civilizations during this time.

Wow, I don't know what's more frightening - Jehovah as a sadistic SOB (wiping out "numberless" pre-Adamic humans) or the credulous boobs coming here to defend Pember. If I was actually interested in wasting my time, I'd go through the comments and tot up all the tired BS trotted out in the defense of the sick incompetent YHVH.

The book he dictated says he exists - oooooh, how could you argue with THAT? *snerk*

The Question still remains, who are we? how did we get here on this Planet,
and why are we here? it's true to say that we, as intellegent beings, live
on a Planet, "slap bang" in the middle of nowhere. What are the chances of
it being just a coincidence? surely there must be some superior intellegence
in controll of it for some reason

Just a coincidence, is an easy way out, but look at us, we can understand mathematics, physics and electronics to
an unimaginable degree, and look what we have produced for ourselves from the dust of the Earth that we live on.?
We live to a certain age and then we die. we also have the ability to produce offspring like ourselves,and they will die too,
so it goes on. unlike the marvelous animal kingdom, we wear cothes to cover our nakedness, but scientists say that we are just
animal, then why the clothes? It's pretty evedent that we are more than just intellegent animals. so the baffling mystery goes on

I'm not sure that even you yourself understand what you're trying to say...
Since as far as I can make out, you think that that's the one thing that sets us apart from animals, I'll try to answer the big question: Why the clothes?
Because it's often cold where most of us now live and we don't have fur. Because clothes don't really hinder us (which they would if we'd live in the water or be able to fly) but can save us from sunburn and protect us mechanically. And because we have opposable thumbs allowing us to make and put on clothes and we're intelligent enough to invent clothing.
And, yes, as far as we know, we're the most intelligent animal on this planet. But it's not by an astronomical margin; quite a lot of what we tend to think of as purely human achievements of the mind - like logical thought, the ability to predict future events by observation of the present, humor, love, compassion (and gratuitous violence on the other side of the lovability spectrum), complex language and the usage of names for individual members of a group - can be found in other animals, too.
Admittedly, you might have a bit pf a point, since the concept of modesty (as in permanently hiding your genitals) and religion seem to be purely human inventions. But if an almighty got had made these traits, you'd expect them to be instincts, which they're not.
If you want to, I could try to elaborate the last point, but for now I'll go to sleep...

Cheers!

Rob

If you consider the Bonobo Chimpanzee which is supposed to be our closest "evolutionary" connection, It shares about 96% of our
( human) DNA, and yet it cannot utter even one word of any human laguage, it still remains just an animal,
and it also cannot interbreed with a human. From a physical standpoint it has hand, feet eyes nose etc, just like a human does,
as-well as many human charracteristics and expressions. Also it is absolutely pre-occupied with sex.
But in every other aspect, it is a million miles from a human. It can't even add 1+ 1 together.
If people believe that we evolved from some animal, how come this evolutionary process never went any higher than a human.?
If an animal cannot cross with a human, then how did those "animal charracteristics" get into the human race?

You are the best proof of evolution... God would never create someone this dumb.

I was expecting that kind of reponse, but you still haven't answered the question.
people usually respond like that when their back's are against the wall.
how did that sexual depravity that is in that Bonobo Chimpanzee get into the human
race? Google it yourself on youtube and take a look.

Oh no, you got us, you brainiac.

You are right, I have got you, that was a foregone conclusion, in otherwords, Checkmate!
and you are obviously the very finality of ignorance.

If God made Adam from dirt, why does dirt still exist? Checkmate, Creationists.

The answer to that is quite simple, There was a dispensation of "life developement"
or a period of time in which God brooded over the Earth, an evolution of chemicals,
whereby our physical form was developed via intellegent design. Each "Genus" after
it's kind, and there are many species that are part of a specific
Genus, that were produced from the "dust of the earth" There is no mention that all "dirt" turned into physical life. Substance had a beginning, and substance appeared via the
Word of God , where no substance existed. The very thing that brought substance into existence, was faith. When God said , "let there be" and perhaps a billion years
later an atom burst, and the sun come into existence, and the earth spewed off of the sun
containing all the required chemicals, for the developement of life, in the primordial waters
that subsequently covered the earth. Genesis 1:20 explaines that clearly.

Hmmm... you still haven't explain why there's still dust around. If everything was produced from dust, then there should be no dust left, otherwise it would still be turning into animals... I think you're just trying to evade because you don't have the answer.

What purpose would it serve God, if He turned all dust into moving life, all dust meaning
all substance. What would the creation be walking on?. He made the Earth first, and
then during a creation dispensation of perhaps thousands of years, He brought moving
life and plant life into existance using the various chemicals etc. that were already there.
No man can know exactly how God did it. This is absolutely beyond man's comprehention.

Well it's seems like either you are guessing so you know nothing about what god did or he told you which means you know exactly how he did it, of course we would only have your word to go on.
I dont understand why god would create humans without the ability to comprehend him or his actions? Seems like an oversight.

One thing for sure, we do exist. So if life started in the primordial waters that covered the earth
back then, it still had to have come into existence somehow. life isn't substance, it is intangible.
and the chemicals etc,in the earth, only support it. now you have to agree with me, that this is
completely out of mans understanding. An atom, is still substance, So where is this substance
comming from? that makes up an atom, one can go smaller than an atom, and smaller and smaller
and down a million miles from the diamentions of an atom. The question is, where is it comming from?

Where did you come from? Once you figure out the full answer to that question, the conclusion should be obvious.

Well, I once did ask that question, how did you happen to be here on planet Earth.? were you in the foreknowedge of God, as an attribute in Him?
or are you part of serpent Seed, that had no part in God, other than to live your alotted time on Earth, after which you cannot go any further.
just like a hybrid plant. magestic in it's life, but with no chance of getting back to its orrigin in death. regeneration, and eternal life are to them
that are expressions of God,( the righteous line from Seth) which one are you?

Like all Subgenius, I'm actually descended from the Yeti. Completely different lineage, not created by God at all. I don't want to brag, but we're also better than you, by the way.

Well, you don't really expect me to believe that, do you? how are you going to stop the ageing process in you,? which, by the way, is the result of disbelief. If you came from the "yeti" and you are better than me,.......then how come we are both getting older, and going to die soon.? unless you have other plans LOL.
So it matters not whether your IQ is north or South of the "intellectual" scale, you still remain subject to the Word of God,....The soul that sinneth shall die, ( physically and spiritually) if you think you came from some animal, then try putting an animals blood in , to prolong your life. it won't take you too long to realize that you don't come from some yeti, and you ain't any better than me after-all. you will have a few minutes to live though.

Geesh, it's like you Christians think we all want to proselyte like you do. I really couldn't care less if you believe me or not.

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